Used Solema Bookbinding Machine for sale (65,221)

Year of construction: 2018, condition: excellent (used), functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 18387, For sale is a flake ice machine from the company Higel. Type: HEC 141 EB11 Year of manufacture: 2018 Nedpfxezwum Ro Ad Nswk The machine is in very good condition and ready for immediate use. Capacity: approx. 135 kg / 24 hours Refrigerant: R 449 A

Year of construction: 2023, operating hours: 5,027 h, condition: excellent (used), functionality: fully functional, Equipment: documentation/manual, We are offering this very well-maintained Halter CNC Automation Millstacker Premium 25 handling robot for CNC milling machines, year of manufacture 2023, with very low operating hours. Custom modifications deviating from the standard model that were carried out for us: 1. An individual deposit position (in our case, onto a chute into a water bath) was added as an option. This setup also allows all 12 stacking positions to be loaded with raw parts—whereas when depositing onto the table, only 11 stacking positions can be loaded with raw parts. 2. Customized adjustment of the angular alignment in the magazine. As a result, longer/larger parts can also be placed lengthwise between the bars when diagonal placement is no longer possible. Nsdpfsy Nmmijx Ad Nswk 3. An additional set of longer support bars was manufactured to securely position larger parts. If you have any questions or require more information, please feel free to send us a message or call us.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2010, Immediately available ex location: CNC bed milling machine Wagner Type WBE 1300 R Njdpfxjzwufge Ad Njwk Year of manufacture: 2010 Siemens Sinumerik 810 D Table 1500 x 400 mm Travel X/Y/Z: 1300/500/570 mm SK 40 Automatic tool clamping Drive power 12/9 kW Spindle speeds 60 – 8,000 rpm Electronic handwheel Ball screw Vice Various tool holders Weight 4 t Price: EUR 5,500 plus VAT ex location

Condition: good (used), Zwick Type: BT2-FZ0.5TS.D16 500 N + Xforce P 500N Material testing machine Testing force in tension/compression: 500 N Overall height, without head crossbeam: 789 mm Overall width: 411 mm Overall depth: 622 mm Installation area: net footprint: 0.008 m² load frame base area: 0.196 m² specific floor load: based on typical installations: 0.85 kg/cm² with 50% safety margin: 1.28 kg/cm² Ceiling load: based on typical installations: 97 kN/cm² with 50% safety margin: 146 kN/cm² Nsdpfjziixlex Ad Nswk Working space depth: 105 mm Working space height with extension arm installed pointing upwards: minimum height: 235 mm maximum height: 565 mm Working space height with extension arm installed pointing downwards: minimum height: 90 mm maximum height: 420 mm Software: testXpert III Version 1.9 Weight: approx. 78 kg with accessories Condition: used Scope of delivery: (See image) (Changes and errors in the technical data are subject to change!) We would be happy to answer any further questions you may have by phone.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2017, operating hours: 2,000 h, functionality: fully functional, Equipment: documentation/manual, Lissmac mild steel processing line SBM-M D 1500:Two-side slag removal of plasma and thermal cut sheets up to 120 mm material thickness SBM-XL 1500:Deburring and edge rounding of parts up to 120 mm material thickness Processing both sides of the parts simultaneously Slag removing, deburring and edge rounding by single pass Max. working width: 1500 mm Conveyors 2 x 3000mm and 3 x 4200mm Max load 750 kg/m² Dust suction device ESTA DDE 8500, 7,5kW Including spare parts, consumables Njdpfszwlnrsx Ad Njwk Full line has less than 2000 working hours Very good condition Available for inspection

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2018, functionality: fully functional, center width: 1,200 mm, overall weight: 7,000 kg, travel distance X-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 800 mm, controller model: Bosch Rexroth MTX, TECHNICAL DETAILS Center distance: 1,200 mm Max. outer diameter: 350 mm Max. workpiece weight between centers: 50 kg Cross slide, X-axis Travel, X-axis: 500 mm Max. speed: 30 m/min Resolution: 0.1 µm Longitudinal slide, Z-axis Travel, Z-axis: 800 mm Max. speed: 30 m/min Resolution: 0.0005–0.1 mm Multi-function head, B-axis Swivel range: -45° to +225° Swivel time for 180°: < 3 s Positional accuracy: 0.0002° Repeatability: 1″ Resolution: 0.001° External machining Max. machining length: 750 mm Peripheral speed: 50 corundum / 80 CBN Drive power: 15 kW Max. grinding wheel dimensions: Ø 400 × 50 × 152.4 mm Internal machining Max. bore diameter: 250 mm Max. bore depth: 235 mm Drive power S1: 1.8–7.5 kW Speed range: 30,000–50,000 rpm Workpiece spindle, C-axis Max. speed: 1,500 rpm Drive power: 1.8 kW Drive torque: 90 Nm Resolution of measuring system: 0.001° Roundness accuracy: 0.8 µm Positional accuracy: 0.0001° Tailstock Quill stroke: 50 mm / 80 mm Nsdpfx Adezwm Ake Nowk Quill diameter: 60 mm Bearing: hydrostatic Fine adjustment for cylindricity corrections: ± 40 µm 3-point steady rest Clamping range, diameter: 20 – 150 mm Coarse adjustment: 40 µm Fine adjustment: 2 µm Adjustability: stepless MACHINE DETAILS CNC control: Bosch Rexroth MTX Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 2,850 x 2,470 x 2,290 mm Weight: 7,000 kg EQUIPMENT 3-point steady rest

Condition: used, In this offer you purchase a used cutting system "Fotoba FHS42 PW" Object of sale: 1 x Fotoba FHS42 PW suitable for: HP Pagewide Pro XL 10000 HP Pagewide XL 8000 Condition: This offer is a used device, which may show signs of use (minor scratches or yellowing). (minor scratches or yellowing). Njdoqmm D Sopfx Ad Newk Packaging and dispatch: You are welcome to view the device during our business hours. Please make an appointment for this! Seaworthy packaging and worldwide shipping available on request! For further information you can of course also contact us personally.

Condition: used, functionality: fully functional, This offer is for a used ‘Xerox iGen 5 Press’ colour production system Items for sale: 1 x Xerox iGen 5 Press with the following specifications: Includes FreeFlow Print Server Includes 2 x YVC-2 paper decks Includes YVC-3 finisher Includes 5th colour (orange) Not the right configuration? It is no problem to configure the machine to your requirements. Please feel free to contact us! Meter readings: Total: Approx. 15,719,744 pages Condition: This offer is for a used machine, which may show signs of wear (minor scratches or yellowing). The device has been tested for functionality A test printout can be seen in the photo Packaging and shipping: Nodpfey Dfclox Ad Njwk You are welcome to view the device during our business hours. Please arrange an appointment for this! Seaworthy packaging and worldwide shipping available on request! A functional test will be recorded on video for you prior to dispatch or collection. For further information, you are of course welcome to contact us directly.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2002, operating hours: 5,152 h, functionality: fully functional, Komptech MAXX screening machine from 2002, in perfect condition. Njdpfx Adjzwv N He Nswk

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2026, travel distance X-axis: 3,200 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 2,100 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 900 mm, controller model: MAX 5, workpiece weight (max.): 11,000 kg, table width: 1,700 mm, table length: 3,000 mm, table load: 11,000 kg, rotational speed (max.): 18,000 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 18,000 rpm, coolant supply: 40 bar, We are offering the following machine directly on behalf of the owner. It was delivered in 2026, but due to a change in requirements, it will not be put into operation. The machine is in its original packaging and has not been used. 5-axis CNC portal milling machine, new Manufacturer: HURCO Type: DCX 32-5 Si Year of manufacture: 2025, delivery 3/2026 Control: MAX 5, 2 screens TRAVEL RANGES X-axis: 3,200 Y-axis: 2,100 Z-axis: 900 mm B-axis: +100°/-110° C-axis: ±360° TABLE Table size: 3,000 × 1,700 Table load: 11,000 kg Distance between portal columns: 2,130 mm Nedpfxjzl Hbce Ad Nowk Distance spindle nose–table: 66 – 966 mm SPINDLE / HEAD Swivel head CYTEC Tool holder: HSK63-A Speed max.: 18,000 rpm Power: 45/63 kW Torque max.: 106 Nm Rapid traverse: 15/15/10 m/min Tool changer / ATC: 60-position EQUIPMENT: - Internal cooling through spindle 40 bar - KNOLL band filter system - KNOLL chip conveyor - Direct path measuring system X/Y/Z - Workpiece probe RENISHAW RMP600 - Tool measurement: RENISHAW NC4 - Calibration sphere - Rotoclear - RITTAL spindle cooler - Enclosed protective cabin - LED work area lighting - Signal light - Coolant spray gun SOFTWARE OPTIONS: - Simultaneous 5-axis machining - Dialog / NC Mix - FANUC-compatible NC mode - Macro programming - Ulti Motion (10,000 block look-ahead) - STEP and DXF import - Automatic pocket and island recognition - Multi-touch SERVICES: - Warranty extension + 12 months - Commissioning by HURCO (including in Germany) MACHINE DIMENSIONS Footprint: approx. 9,982 × 6,815 mm Height: approx. 5,250 mm Machine weight: approx. 37,700 kg (transport approx. 45 t)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2000, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 2,200 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 1,200 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 800 mm, spindle speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, overall weight: 2,000 kg, spindle motor power: 21,000 W, CNC Portal Vertical Machining Center DEPO Type DEPOCUT 2012 Year of manufacture 2000 Heidenhain TNC 430 Electronic handwheel Table 2300 x 1600 mm Travel distances X / Y / Z 2200 / 1200 / 800 mm Max. table load 12 tons Tool holder SK 40 Nwjdszwm A Dopfx Ad Nek Tool changer, 12 positions Spindle speeds 30 - 15,000 rpm Minimum quantity lubrication Spindle drive 21 kW Machine weight 20 tons Weiss spindle overhauled, spindle operating hours since overhaul 1352h Machine is still in operation Dismantling and transport must be carried out by the buyer.

Year of construction: 1991, condition: ready for operation (used), Dalex DR-F 2 0.35 m³/h 220 Volt No. 109115732 Year of manufacture 1991 Nwjdjftbtmopfx Ad Nsk Refrigerant R12 – needs to be refilled.

Year of construction: 2011, condition: excellent (used), Manual chamfering machine for round tubes and bars 4-spindle deburring and chamfering machine For internal and external deburring/chamfering Spindle speeds: 70/140 rpm Materials: steel, stainless steel, aluminium, non-ferrous metals Diameter: Ø 2 – 75 mm Min. workpiece length: from 100 mm Nwedezwpwqjpfx Ad Nek Deburring time: 3–4 sec. / end face The machine is equipped with deburring tools from the manufacturer Kopal. Tool holder is MK3 The deburring tools are adjustable so that the same chamfer depth is always achieved. Very good condition

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2007, Machine design: Cantilever machine Travel in X-direction: 5000 mm Travel in Y-direction: 1815 mm Travel (Z-axis): 600 mm Clearance height: 370 mm Number of main spindles: 1 Main spindle power: 12 kW Main spindle speed: 600-24000 rpm Vector-controlled spindle: Yes Clamping system: HSK-63 F Spindle cooling: Liquid cooling Nwsdpfxozwg H Aj Ad Nek Number of axes: 5 Tool changer: Disc tool changer Tool change positions: 24 Back wall milling units: Yes Vertical drilling spindles – in X-direction: 12 Spindle speed vertical drilling spindle: 2000-6000 rpm Horizontal drilling spindle in X-direction: 2 + 2 Horizontal drilling spindle in Y-direction: 1 + 1 Spindle speed horizontal drilling spindle: 2000-6000 rpm Monitor size: 15" Control type: PC control Operating system: Windows XP Typewriter keyboard: Yes Mouse: Yes Programming system: xilog Plus DXF interface: Yes Online connection possible: Yes CD-ROM drive: Yes Floppy disk drive: Yes Table design: Console table, tubeless Stop system: Stop cylinders Support arms: 8 Suction plates and clamps: various included Linear guides: 2 Number of vacuum pumps: 1 Vacuum pump capacity: 250 m³/h Alternating field configuration: Yes Safety guard, left: Yes Safety guard, right: Yes Extraction hood: controlled via axes Setup aid: Dot laser setup aid Safety features: Safety floor mats Central lubrication: automatic Tools: various tools available at an extra charge Dimensions: 7820x4730 mm Extraction diameter: 300 mm Storage location:

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2026, functionality: fully functional, ADV 508 RW 300 CN – Deburring & Edge Rounding Machine Nedszwqvuepfx Ad Nowk The ADV 508 RW 300 CN is a compact automatic machine for deburring, light edge rounding and surface finishing of laser-cut, plasma-cut and punched sheet metal parts. The combination of a wide belt grinding unit and rotating brush provides fast burr removal and consistent edge finishing in a single pass. The machine is particularly suitable for parts with larger outside contours. Expected in stock from September 2026 and available for demonstrations in our showroom. Main Features Deburring, light edge rounding and surface finishing Wide belt grinding unit for efficient burr removal Rotating brush for multidirectional edge processing Particularly effective on outside contours Suitable for steel, stainless steel and aluminium Servo-controlled workpiece height adjustment Variable feed speed Compact 300 mm working width Delta PLC control 7" touchscreen Technical Specifications Model: ADV 508 RW 300 CN Working width: 300 mm Material thickness: 0.5–80 mm Minimum workpiece: 50 × 50 mm with vacuum table / 30 × 30 mm with magnetic table Feed speed: 0.5–7 m/min Grinding unit: 1 × wide grinding belt Grinding belt: 1,650 × 320 mm Grinding belt motor: 5.5 kW Brush unit: 1 × rotating brush Rotating brush: Ø300 × 300 × 40 mm Brush motor: 2.2 kW Vacuum pump: 5.5 kW Height adjustment: Servo-controlled Control: Delta PLC Operating panel: 7" touchscreen Power supply: 3×380 V / 50 Hz Efficient Deburring & Edge Rounding The wide belt removes burrs and provides an even surface finish. The following rotating brush processes the workpiece from multiple directions for light and consistent edge rounding. This RW configuration is especially suitable for flat sheet metal parts with larger outside contours and limited complex internal contours, making it an efficient solution for repetitive production. Typical applications include machine construction, steel fabrication, enclosure manufacturing and general sheet metal processing. Service & Availability The ADV 508 RW 300 CN is expected to arrive in stock in September 2026 and will then be available at short notice. The machine can be viewed and demonstrated in our showroom by appointment. Besten Machines provides installation, technical support, spare parts, consumables and service from our locations in the Netherlands and Germany. Contact us for a quotation or demonstration with your own workpieces.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2009, Rovema Type ETO Year of manufacture: 2009 Carton folding and packaging Nwjdpezwvtfjfx Ad Njk

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2003, operating hours: 8,000 h, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 163341, Country of manufacture: UK Voltage: 400V 3-phase AC 50/60Hz, max 58A Dimensions: 200x260x250 cm Net machine weight: 5010 kg TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS Capacities Table dimensions: length 900 mm / depth 410 mm X-axis: 560 mm Y-axis: 410 mm Z-axis: 510 mm Distance from spindle nose to table surface: min. 150 mm, max. 660 mm Distance from spindle center to column: 540 mm Maximum table load: 500 kg Spindle Speed: 40 – 12,000 rpm Power (5 min): 18.5 kW Power (10 min): 15 kW Power (30 min): 10 kW Continuous power: 7.5 kW Feed Rapid traverse: 36,000 mm/min Cutting feed rate: 1 to 8,000 mm/min Table Dimensions: 900x410 mm T-slot size (ISO R299): 18 mm / Number: 3 / Spacing: 125 mm Permissible load: 500 kg Distance from floor to table surface: 780 mm ATC Tool Magazine Number of tools: 30 pcs Tool selection: free choice of station number; automatic bi-directional search Tool holder: MAS BT-40 Max. tool diameter in magazine: Ø 80 mm (without adjacent tool: Ø 125 mm) Max. tool weight: 8 kg Max. magazine load: 120 kg Max. tool length: 350 mm Tool change time: 2.9 s (chip-to-chip) Nwedpfx Ajw T Tp Red Nok Lubricant tank: 1.8 L Feed lubricant tank: 260 cm³ Spindle coolant tank: 16 L Hydraulic pressure tank: 460 cm³ Coolant tank: 200 L Compressed air: 0.5 to 0.9 bar Capacity: 200 L/min Subject to errors or omissions, all technical specifications are provided without guarantee.

Year of construction: 2000, operating hours: 2,000 h, condition: used, functionality: fully functional, Anutec vibrating screen machine Nwjdpfx Aszwwgyjd Nsk Quick-release clamps Polished interior 1 unbalanced motor drive Including control cabinet Easy screen deck replacement Screen deck covering according to choice

Condition: good (used), Gas metal arc welding machine, arc welding system, MIG/MAG welding system, pulse welding system -Manufacturer: Esab, PULS MIG/MAG welding machine Nwjdpoy Ulzijfx Ad Nsk -Type: AristoMig 500W -Max. welding power: 500 A -Features: Water-cooled -Wire feeder case: 4-roller drive Esab type AristoFeed 48-4 -Quantity: 3x Esab, PULS MIG/MAG welding machine available -Price: per piece -Dimensions: 1200/700/H1730 mm -Weight: 210 kg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1984, x-travel 1000 mm y-travel 508 mm z-travel 460 mm size of pallet 1240 x 550 mm numbers of pallets 2 workpiece weight 800 kg Nsdpotqqk Ijfx Ad Newk spindle taper ISO 40 spindle motor 5,5 kW turning speed range 28 - 4000 U/min no. of tools in magazin 30 control MAZATROL M 1 weight of the machine ca. 5,6 t dimensions of the machine ca. 4,50 x 3,00 x 2,65 m acc.: chip conveyor

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2002, For sale: Junget / Biesse Rover 24 L CNC milling machine / machining center. The machine is designed for professional processing of furniture panels, wooden components, plastics, and production components. It is suitable for carpentry workshops, companies producing furniture, kitchen elements, fronts, structural panels, PEHD components, and other parts requiring precise milling and drilling. The Biesse Rover 24 L is a robust CNC machining center equipped with a vacuum table, automatic tool changer, and a set of drilling spindles. The machine enables quick and repeatable performance of milling, vertical and horizontal drilling, and grooving operations. Technical specifications: Model: Junget / Biesse Rover 24 L Type: CNC milling machine / CNC machining center Machine dimensions: approx. 5.8 × 2.45 × 2.5 m Work table: vacuum X-axis travel: 4500 mm Y-axis travel: 1300 mm Z-axis travel: 180 mm Vacuum pump: 120 m³/h Control system: NC1000 Operating system: Windows XP Automatic tool changer: yes Vertical drilling spindles: 7 pcs Horizontal drilling spindles: 8 pcs Circular saw: for making grooves / slots, e.g., in fronts or furniture components Safety features: safety grid / safety mat Tools installed in the machine: included Applications: The machine is particularly well-suited for the production of furniture, kitchen cabinets, fronts, carcasses, base panels, and components requiring serial drilling and milling. The drill array allows for the simultaneous execution of several holes, which speeds up production and ensures dimensional repeatability. The machine was mainly used for processing PEHD1000 plastic, which confirms its versatility and the ability to work not only with wood-based materials but also with engineering plastics. Technical condition: The machine has been used. According to information from the previous owner, the device is functional, starts up, and has no known defects or reservations. The equipment is sold as used and is subject to verification by the buyer upon collection. Key advantages: * robust industrial construction, * large working area, * vacuum table, Nedpfszf E E Hjx Ad Nswk * automatic tool changer, * vertical and horizontal drilling spindles, * circular saw for grooves and slots, * ability to process panels, wood, and plastics, * good machine for the production of furniture and serial components. The machine is suitable for continued operation in a production plant, carpentry workshop, or company engaged in CNC machining.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2009, operating hours: 8,000 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 730 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 560 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 560 mm, controller manufacturer: Heidenhain, controller model: iTNC 530, rotational speed (max.): 12,000 rpm, spindle motor power: 12,000 W, number of slots in tool magazine: 60, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, Available: End of October/Beginning of November Manufacturer: DECKEL MAHO (DMG MORI) Model: DMU 60 monoBLOCK Year of manufacture: 2009 Operating hours: approx. 30,000 h Nwjdpfx Ajzwx Aiod Nsk Spindle hours only: approx. 8,000 h Control system: HEIDENHAIN iTNC 530 Axes: 5-axis simultaneous machining Technical data & spindle: Travels: X = 730 mm | Y = 560 mm | Z = 560 mm 4th axis (B-axis – swivel head): +30° to -120° (NC swivel milling head with hydraulic clamping) 5th axis (C-axis – rotary table): 360° (endlessly rotatable NC rotary table, resolution 0.001°) Main spindle: max. 12,000 rpm (high-torque version) Tool interface: SK 40 Tool changer: 60-position chain magazine (large expansion stage) Equipment & accessories: Cooling: Internal coolant supply (IKZ) including paper band filter system Chip conveyor Measuring probe available - DMG TS 649 Documentation and key available Videos available

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, Technical data: - Manufacturer: Bütfering - Type: Optimat SGO 211/RC - Number of grinding units: 2 - Year of manufacture: 2008 - Working width: 1.100 mm - Grinding belt width: 1.120 mm - Grinding belt length: 1.900 mm - Workpiece thickness: 3-160 mm - Feed speed: 2,5-13 m/min. - Table height adjustment Standard equipment: - Automatic workpiece thickness adjustment - Stepless feed speed via requency converter. - 125 grinding programs can be stored - Wear-free braking system 1. Grinding unit (R) - Calibration roller - Profiled steel contact roller - Diameter 160 mm - Drive motor: 15 kW 2nd grinding unit (C) - Combination unit with roller and grinding shoe - Rubberized contact roller 65 Shore - Contact roller diameter 160 mm - Electronic link pressure bar with segment width 35 mm. - Belt speed: 12 and 21 m/s - Tolerance compensation up to 1 mm - Suitable for veneered surfaces and solid wood. - Drive motor: 11 kW - Total connected load: approx. 28 kW - Operating voltage: 400 V / 50 Hz. - Compressed air consumption at 6 bar, 20 L/min. - Belt blow-off device per pressure surge 440 L/min. Nwjdoyh Hwuspfx Ad Nek - Extraction volume: approx. 2,880 m3/h/ at 20 m/s - Extraction connection: Dedusting: 1 x Ø 160 mm (grinding unit, roller) 1 x Ø 160 mm (grinding unit, shoe) Dimensions: - Length: 1,700 mm - Width: 1,850 mm - Height: 2,100 mm - Location: not in stock

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2016, Bizerba A550 Slicing machine Suitable for cooked meat, bacon, cheese Capable of stacking, shingling into groups Njdjy Ndukjpfx Ad Newk Wire mesh conveyor belt Year 12-2016 In excellent working condition New blade Inverter fitted With new non stick slicing blade fitted, New slice thickness motor fitted New rubber bands fitted on stacking conveyor

Condition: excellent (used), Catalogue number 7979 TECHNICAL DATA - Max. diameter of processed dowels: 130mm - Installed bushing: 57mm - Min. input material length: 800mm - Knife head drive motor: 18.5kW - 4 feed speeds + forward/reverse - Feed motor: 2.2kW In order: - Infeed traction rolls, toothed: 6 pcs - 3-knife head - Outfeed traction rolls, smooth: 6 pcs - Extraction port diameter: 140mm - Additional bushings included: 40, 45, 50, 75mm - Dimensions (L/W/H): 3100x1300x1400mm - Weight: 2100kg ADVANTAGES – Polish manufacture – 3-knife head – Additional bushings included: 40, 45, 50, 75mm – Used dowel rounding machine, very good condition Net price: 31,900 PLN Nwsdpfjzwwwlex Ad Nok Net price: 7,590 EUR (based on exchange rate of 4.2 PLN/EUR) (Prices may change with higher fluctuations)